Monday, August 30, 2010

SHOULD WOMEN BE ALLOWED TO READ EID NAMAAZ at EIDGAH

DONT CLOSE THE DARWAJOH (DOOR)
By Uncle UBG

UBG, the logo and the post are sole property of Swoosh0018.blogspot.com and KiLLa.co.za.. Misuse of any of these will be considered as plagiarism..
click on pic to enlarge

"Arre yaar. Vut a thing bhai. I vus veet UBG last nyt. Sattawees raat. Vee vent to small maseet in locality with lot oopling rokraah.. Cos we know, after Taraweeh vee get Milk Tray and Magnum Vanilla Almond flavor. And dey didnt deesappoint. Teep Tawp maseet this one, teep tawp.. Maybe cos da veemen ver at home..

All dis veemen in maseet story dat is floating is highly concerning to me. If my Mota Papa vus alive today, and his vife say she vanna go maseet, his high blood level wouldve shoot through the roof.. No word of lie.. Today UBG dee read on Mawroo Kitaab (facebook) dat know dees veemen vanna go Eid Gah and be on Maseet Committee.. Even Mr Raj from fruit shop dee say "Aapne madat kir".. " - insert taken from the 'I DON VUN EARTHQAUKE post --> http://killa.co.za/blog/?p=955

There is alvays debate going on about vether or not vomen should be reading namaaz behind Imam and performing Jumma in jammat or even Eid Namaaz at Eidgah..

Its like the SANHA Halaal/Haraam Issue. There is no answer.Is Karren beef Halaal,Is Nandos Halaal,Is Mcdonalds Halaal.Why cant a printer supply brochures to a brothel where as a butcher can supply meat to a brothel...stuff like that.Ah Eid namaaz vas alvays special.As a lity I remember we would look forward to the morning.Sit in the Mosque,the fast was over..

There were always two brothers that used to wear their Eid Clothes from COSMOS from 7 in morning.You see them shining as they enter ..When Moosa Pheer(pronounced Moosafeer) heard this that the women want to read Eid Namaaz he went mad.He said its not their place.They dont see us putting Mendhi on our hands and dancing during a Geet..And Moosa Pheer is very holey...he just travels alot.Uncle Salaam he said he dont mind because he always tries to see stand behind the womens SAF.. Uncle Salaam reckons that he always gets import ideas and smells the new fragrances and sees cloaks and Abayas..So for him its business.He dont care.. "Seriously bah, this avoids me going thru pages and pages of catalogues bah.. Hear I take one look and the order slip can be done bah"..

But it has become a big issue and we would like to open this debate.Should women be allowed to perform Eid namaaz. I remember seeing Swoosh bhai and KiLLa bah on their Karooberry's at the 2010 Opening ceremony jumma.They must have been bb'ing the ladies at the back saying..Im in 4th Saf. standing next to Mo wearing a makarapah and german top..

So I ask you should the women be making the roast and breakfast on Eid morning or should they be leading the congregation of women on their own Eidgah/ .Can you imagine that Eidgah.Instead of White you will see colors and Swarovskies..You will see shoes from Sokrates, Nine West, Aldo and Jimmy Choos lying on the grass.The catwalks of Milan will be signified on the plains of the Eidgah.. The Eid Sun will beam on the Svarovskys synonymous to the Diamond Rush in Kimberly during the 18 hundreds.. You put a few badaams with collection tins and brothers will be running to the ATMS to fill that bucket..I rather stop here lol..

So I ask should women be allowed to read Eid namaz at Eidgah ?

a Swoosh0018 production on behalf of KiLLa.co.za

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128 comments:

  1. Salaams Swoosh / Uncle Bhai Gora

    I beleive you should not belittle women by implying that Eid is all about fashion

    Sure we all (including guys) want to wear our best on Eid day...most guys spend more than women on their outfits!

    I beleive that out prophet (PBUH) encouraged women to come to the eid salaah - even if they were menstruating

    Why should we take away the rights of our women that was given to them by the Rasul...you talk about the possible communication that occurs between guys and women...dont make the women pay for the weakness of the guys or some odd woman in the congregation

    I ask: What right does any Maulana, Mufti or UBG have to stop women from their Islamic right, in contradiction to the instruction of the holy prophet?

    From a man who intends taking his wife to the Eid Salaah, and who intends to enjoy the spirit of Eid, family and one united Islamic community

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  2. To the comment above.Swoosh0018.com is just the media platform for this debate.
    UBG and co are individuals that have shared their views.Thank you for your comment though and lets see how the debate unfolds

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  3. This is always a debatable issue.And now we have a platform to discuss.Is it or isnt it.
    Its reality.Lets just keep it clean.Good Post

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  4. Why debate something that is a sahi hadith as quoted in bukhari? who are we to question sunnah? why do we choose which sunnah we want to follow and what we want to abandon...we are all answerable for the lack of "allowing" women into the eid ghah!!

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  5. "allow"? You've got to be joking? What right have we to "allow" or "disallow" anything?

    This is more a cultural debate than a religious debate. It is your culture in gauteng and kzn that doesn't afford women this opportunity.

    As for whose opinion this is, don't hide behind fictitious pen names to push your agenda.

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  6. Antonio- could not have said it better myself.

    Swoosh- Keep Islam out of your misogynistic culture

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  7. hamid from hammasfortTuesday, 31 August, 2010

    Swoosh man, well said.
    The times of the prophet and the times of today are very different.
    i totally agree with them being at home.

    Its the rise of the 'MODERNIST' deen that is going to kill our integrity

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  8. Hamid, I think you need to stay in Hammosford!

    "Modernist" when we are trying to follow the Sunnah. You are modernist, trying to change the Sunnah

    I get irritated by that same excuse "Times have changed"

    Rubbish! Islam is a religion for ALL times
    Times have changed is convenient for double standards people like you, who want to oppress their women and think that their Indo-Pak interpretation of Islam is the only way

    Maybe you and the women in your family are weak in Imaan...if that be the case rather leave your women at home...but then dont allow them to travel alone, go to the mall, go shopping etc!

    Us who have no doubts will continue following the beautiful sunnah of our beloved prophet, regardless of how times change!

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  9. Swoosh

    They will have those portable card swiping machines, if badaams are handling the collection boxes.

    Allowed/Not allowed is debatable. I say its best they stay at home. We live in a time of fitna, and i think there is greater benefit in avoiding it then allowing it to create.

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  10. Firstly i dont know whether to laugh or cry at the anon comment. I mean they are trying to defend themselve but then say "Maybe you and the women in your family are weak in Imaan"

    That is an absurd statement that took the essence of your argument away.

    Swoosh, culture vs religion. Many seem to mistake the 2. I do however follow the norm and advise of our religious elders and pray at home. I think it is more fruitful and rewarding for myself as well.

    Thanks

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  11. antonio is spot on. yes there are cases when women misbehave but this is directly linked to the fact that they are more often than not 'left behind' at home so they do not know the etiquette of praying in jama'a. insha allah if women in the musjid becomes a norm, the levels of education in our community as a whole will be upped

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  12. Firstly - its not a question of should they / shouldnt they - its a questions of THEY (women) HAVE TO.

    Well said Antonio!

    I've lived abroad in the Middle East as well as in the West, and women going to the eid salaah in not even a question - it is a MUST! I;ve also been attending Masjid-ul-Islam eidgah in brixton Johannesburg (at the hunter mclea sports grounds), for the last 5 years, and it is a most spiritually uplifting experience - for me there is NO eid without eid salaah and reciting the takbeer aloud - its as simple as that! Hope that some of you will come to the eid-gah - this year we are having a family breakfast picnic after salaah (which is at 7am). This is one of the very very few family inclusive eid-gahs, (there is also bosmont, sultan bahu and the Somali community - speaking of which, if one drives through bird street mayfair on eid morning - the street is inundated with somali families going to pray, perhaps UBG should tell the somali men to make their women stay at home too) ... the speaker will be shaikh Abdul Karim Algoni from Sudan and the kids will receive an eid surprise treat too!

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  13. All arguments aside, Aalimah Quraysha Sooliman explains why women MUST go to Eid-Salaah

    Many Scholars and Islamic Organisations state that Muslim women must not go for the Eid Salaat, yet the Eid salaat is compulsory (wajib) also for women.

    Do you know the truth?

    1) First we were told Hazrat Omar RA gave the final verdict: but do you know…
    He only tried to discourage his wife and never commanded against all the Muslim women from attending! Because he knew he could not go against the hadith of the Prophet SAW which said: ‘Do not prevent your women from attending the mosque if they seek your permission to do so’ (Sahih Muslim).

    2) Then we were told that it leads to fitna: but do you know… that at the time of the Prophet SAW a woman was attacked on her way to the mosque and this event did not motivate him from preventing the women to attend the mosque (from Silaat al-ahadeeth as-saheehah, Ahmed). Additionally, there is fitnah everywhere, are we justified in saying women make ‘fitnah’ when they come to the mosque? Is it not true that the majority of sisters who attend the mosques come with pure intentions?

    3) Then we were told that Hazrat Ayesha RA said that if the Prophet SAW was present amongst us he would have prevented the women from attending the mosques: but do you know…that the Prophet SAW predicted and mentioned many ahaadith about women and their disobedience, their fitnas and their dressings, yet in spite of these prophecies and the many visions of the Prophet SAW of the women in Jahannam, he still said more than once ‘do not prevent the female slaves of Allah from attending the mosques of Allah.’ Allah mentions in the Quraan the saying of the Prophet SAW ‘today I have completed your faith for you…’ so to say that the Prophet SAW’s teachings and commands in this aspect is perhaps incomplete because he was ignorant of the times to come, is to go against the testimony of the Prophet SAW himself when he said ‘…today I have completed your faith your you…’ Also, Ayesha RA did not ban nor forbid any woman from attending the musjid.

    4) Then we are told that the majority of scholars agree that women must not attend the mosque: but do you know…that the majority of the Muslim populations around the world all have facilities for women to attend the mosque and encourage the women to come out especially for the Jummah, Taraweeh and Eid Salaat? That the scholars in Makkah, Madinah, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia, USA ,Canada, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, France, Switzerland etc all consider it permissible! Do you know that in South Africa, the majority of the scholars in Cape Town (if not all) have given women the option to attend the Eid Salaat, and that there is a split in Gauteng and KZN on this issue which when tallied proves that more scholars in South Africa support the actions of the Prophet SAW and his pious predecessors in allowing the women to attend the mosques and especially in encouraging them to attend the Eid Salaat.

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  15. 4) Then we are told that the majority of scholars agree that women must not attend the mosque: but do you know…that the majority of the Muslim populations around the world all have facilities for women to attend the mosque and encourage the women to come out especially for the Jummah, Taraweeh and Eid Salaat? That the scholars in Makkah, Madinah, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia, USA ,Canada, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, France, Switzerland etc all consider it permissible! Do you know that in South Africa, the majority of the scholars in Cape Town (if not all) have given women the option to attend the Eid Salaat, and that there is a split in Gauteng and KZN on this issue which when tallied proves that more scholars in South Africa support the actions of the Prophet SAW and his pious predecessors in allowing the women to attend the mosques and especially in encouraging them to attend the Eid Salaat.

    5) Do you know that the Prophet SAW ordered the women to attend the Eid salaat and left no room for any excuses: Al-Bukhaari (324) and Muslim (890) narrated that Umm ‘Atiyyah (may Allah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) commanded us to bring them (women) out on (Eid) al-Fitr and (Eid) al-Adha, and to bring out adolescent girls, menstruating women and virgins, but the menstruating women were to stay away from the prayer, but were to witness goodness and the gathering of the Muslims. I said: “O Messenger of Allah, what if one of us does not have a jilbaab?” He said: “Let her sister lend her a jilbab.” Please note these are all authentic Sahih ahaadith.

    6) Do you know that the women used to pray behind the men in the Prophet’s mosque and that when the numbers of the Muslims started growing the Prophet SAW asked the men to keep one door for the women to enter.

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  16. 7) Do you know that the scholars who do not give permission for women to attend the mosque will allow women to come to the mosque to listen to the speech of their Ustad’s and Muftis but consider it impermissible for the women to come to the mosque to listen to the Speech of Allah! and to obey the commands of the prophet SAW.

    8) Do you know that Musjid al Nabbawi and Musjid al Haraam are MOSQUES- so one should ask these scholars if the home is best for the women, should muslim women pray all their salaat in the hotel rooms when on Umrah as they have said that women must not attend the mosques? Also, although the Prophet SAW said the homes are best, he still gave women the choice to attend the mosque and on Eid he commanded them to attend the prayer.

    There is not a single hadith in which the prophet SAW prohibited, prevented or made impermissible for women to attend the mosque.

    8) Do you know that the Prophet SAW would address the women in the Eid Khutbah (proving that the women were present) and that when the daily salaat were finished he would ask the men to sit and wait for the women to first leave- showing the utmost respect and compassion and consideration for the women in Islam.

    Regarding the Eid Salaat: It is compulsory(wajib) for women to attend the Eid salaat as per the hadith cited in number 5, but there are conditions to attendance- the women must be dressed modestly not extravagantly and they must not wear perfume. It is the responsibility of the scholars and Imaams to inform women that they must attend, but that they should beware of disobeying the conditions. At the same time the scholars and Imaams must admonish the men to respect the rights of women and advise the men that it is obligatory on them to lower their gazes. And it is the responsibility of the men who organise the Eid salaat to ensure that safe, separate and adequate facilities are provided for the women-this includes parking space, specific entrances for the ladies where possible, a decent sound-system and a general respect for the females. And females should exhibit similar modesty and humility.

    Remember: What the Prophet Muhammad SAW made permissible and commanded, and which the companions practised upon, cannot be made impermissible by the scholars of today, nor can they say that it is not allowed for the women to attend the mosque.
    That is going against the teachings of the Prophet SAW.

    What the scholars should say is that it is permissible for women to attend the mosque, but that the women must dress modestly and not use perfume: The prophet SAW said: "If any woman attends the Musjid, she should not use any perfume" (Sahih Muslim).
    So why would the Prophet SAW make such a statement if it was prohibited for women to attend the mosque?

    By: Quraysha Ismail Sooliman

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  19. sorry for the deletions/repetitions above - this blog needs to be more user friendly :)

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  20. @safiyyah. The eid salaah in Brixton is a total sham. A ''family picknik'' Please!!! Theis is like the Zoo lake on Eid day all over again. The brixton Eig Gah is a true modernist muslim gathering in everyway. P.S. I agree that women should be alloed to go to the Eid Gah. I was in Medina last year Ramadaan, and all the locals come with the families the night before and book into hotels, so that the women can attend the Eid salaah at masjid un Nabawi. But please Safiyyah do not for once compare this to the Brixton farce where men and women mix.
    Brother Muslim

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  23. ok "anonymous" - if you define "mixing" as men and women having separate spaces, and families and friends gathering afterwards to greet and share well wishes - then OK

    You are asking to believe a lot of things

    1)that men and women are not supposed to interact when infact from the prophet model, we learn HOW to interact.

    2)with your comment on the zoo lake, that men and women who gather on eid morning for the sole purpose of praying and saying the takbeerat are there to seduce each other

    3) that saudi arabia is the bastion of Islam - which is a far-cry from the truth

    4) that other eidgahs bring together a mix of men women and children from different races/nationalities/ethnicities (when in fact we know in the racist/sexist indian community, blacks can never get beyond being the muadhin or the beggar and women are non-existant)

    5) the picnic, dear anonymous, is going to be held so that the many beggars who come to the eid salaah can share a meal with every1 and not just be given food

    6) alhamdulillah - i am glad you support the idea - it doesnt matter what the set up is, as long as women have adeqaute, seperate space where they are still included in the main congregation, thats all that matters - ive prayed in mosques with no paritions (al aqsa, umayyad, blue mosque) and mosques with them (nabawi etc) - so thats not the issue - as long as we remember that the prophet (SAW) never erected any barriers - but yes, they do have their purpose in large mosques and gatherings!

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  24. @Saffiyah. It is wrong for men strange men and women to interact in this manner. Let us admit our wrongdoings, and not justify it, because then we will be totally lost.

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  25. in which manner exactly> sorry im not sure what you are speaking about? i did not justify anything - just pointed out from my own experiences, my own observations - p.s: have you read eid-salaah at the brixton eid-gah? and perhaps this is not the forum to discuss it, as we are straying from the topic, so you can email me at safiyyah.s@gmail.com if you would like to, assuming of course, that you have been to the eid-gah.

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  26. Saffiya, a truly educated sister! You make me proud

    Those who can think for themselves will see that you are merely stating fact, and stating it well

    Those who confuse culture with our beautiful religion will never see the light

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  27. Uncle Buy Ghora, dont close the Darwajoh on women going to the Eid Gaah - the Rasool left that door open

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  28. Where Do Pious Women Perform Their SalaatTuesday, 31 August, 2010

    http://www.alislam.co.za/uploads/Where%20Do%20Pious%20Women%20Perform%20Their%20Salaat.pdf

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  29. hamid from hammasfortTuesday, 31 August, 2010

    “And (O Muslim Women) remain steadfast in your homes.”
    (Surah Ahzaab)

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  30. hamid from hammasfortTuesday, 31 August, 2010

    Today is Eid namaaz
    Tomorrow bhangisaap duties
    Next they want to be taraweeh imaam in Mayfair Jumuah

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  31. yes - and whilst reading the pdf link above - also note that the view of Deobandi Ulema is a minority one, are we to adopt this view when in fact the majority of the worlds leading ulema - including in Saudi Arabia (who follow the strictest school of law) deem womens attendance at eid salaah a must? in any case - that treatise is about mosques and not eid salaah (not that I agree with it - people should learn to differentiate.)

    As for the Ayah quoted above - please do not qoute the Quran out of context - prominent mufassireen including al-Tabari have mentioned that this verse means women should remain with dignity in their homes, referring to etiquette, and also that it refers specifically to the wives of Nabi (saw) - who in fact, would go to the mosque for Salaah as well. :)

    i recommend the following articles regarding that verse

    http://muslimmatters.org/2010/06/30/homely-homemaking-homebodies-why-the-quran-commands-muslim-women-stay-in-your-homes/

    http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/mca/3784/

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  32. To that farm guy from hammasfort

    It seems that sister Saffiyah has issues a TKO
    Instead of just taking the easy way out (like the guy who left the link above) she uses her own words and own knowledge

    One can see that she is well read and knows her subject matter, whereas most of the opposing views are simple here-say and what they "learnt" in Madressa many moons ago

    Accept your defeat...today you have come across a superior scholar

    As for "Today Eid Namaaz, Tomorrow Bangisaap duties..." remember that they were never given Islamic rights to what you are sarcastically alluding to...so our learned Muslim sisters will not ask for that...and we brothers will not support them if they ask for that

    But please dont try to take away what the Rasul has granted with your limited knowledge and extreme sexism / sarcasm

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  33. I think the post was published with the intention of debate as this is a relative issue. Sister Safs THANKS for informing us, MAY ALLAH GUIDE US ALL ON THE STRAIGHT PATH. However i do feel that women who attend these gatherings need to be properly dressed in the correct ISLAMIC MANNER and not as if on a catwalk in MILAN.

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  34. Learn Deen.co.zaTuesday, 31 August, 2010

    Firstly, it is Makroohe Tahreemie for women to go to the Masjid to perform Salaat, be it the Masjid of one’s locality or the Masjid ul Haram. No doubt, women were permitted to come to the Masaajid for Salaah during the noble and illustrious era of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wasallam, when Islam was being practiced and implemented in its pristine and unadulterated pure form. But that was a period wherein Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wasallam himself was present in the midst of the people, Wahi was regularly being revealed, a mass education programme was rolling along and people were toeing the line of Shari'ah in all aspects of their lives. The fear of Allah Ta'aala and awareness of Deen were uppermost in the hearts of people. Women did not have the temerity of dressing in attractive, state-of-the-art eye-catching outfits or applying scent when emerging from their homes. In short, it was indeed a benevolent period due to which there was no risk of any such intermingling of sexes taking place that would result in fitnah... (cont)

    http://www.learndeen.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=133:women-in-masjid&catid=35:muslimah&Itemid=151

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  35. ah - the famous "we dont live like in the time of the prophet (saw).

    That is why it is all the more important for women to feel connected to their community and the ummah .... via inclusion in the mosque. The masjid is not just a place for prayer - but supposed to be a community centre!

    why do you think so many women are going astray? is it productive to give them excuse you typed above? to make them feel like walking fitnah? do you think that is the way to get women and young girls to reconnect to their deen? you try, and let me know.

    The Prophet would never allow something only for it to be banned later!

    Did you know that in Masjid Nabawi, when the men would go into sujood, sometimes their bodies were exposed due to the type of clothing ... ? what did our sensitive prophet (saw) do? did he ban women? No - he told them to remain a little longer in sajdah until the men were up ...
    (Asma bint Abu Bakr: I heard the Apostle of God say, "One of you who believes in God and in the Last Day should not raise her head until the men raise their heads lest she should see the private parts of men."(Sunan Abu Dawud, No. 850).)

    Did you know that when the Prophet (saw) would here a baby crying he would shorten the Qiyam to ease the mothers heart? Did he tell them to go home coz their babies were disturbing? No!
    look how he treated his own grand daughter:
    Narrated Abu Qatada: The Prophet came out towards us, while carrying Umamah, the daughter of Abi Al-As (his grand-daughter) over his shoulder. He prayed, and when he wanted to bow, he put her down, and when he stood up, he lifted her up.

    Did you know that it was a women who invented the mimbar so that women could see and hear the Prophet (saw) better? Did he tell them - "this is no use, because in 1400 years time, your sisters wont be allowed to go anyways"? no!

    Did you know that women were free to speak and participate in mosque life? The Prophet (saw)'s own daughter have her husband protection between the iqaamah and takbeer of fajr salaah! Did he reprimand her? No! he (saw) upheld her vow!

    Did you know that a women was once attacked on her way to the masjid - did the Prophet (saw) then ban women for fear of danger? No!

    Did you know - when a women was so pertubed about not having time to attend salaah at masjid due to kids etc, the prophet, wanting to reassure her, said that her prayer at home is better. Does this mean he banned women? No, he was being sensitive to this womens anxiety - women continued to be apart of the fabric of mosque life and still are all over the Muslim world.

    I rest my case.

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  36. Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (radhiallahu anhu) reports that
    Rasulullaah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said, “Do not prevent
    the female slaves of Allaah from attending the Masjids of
    26
    Allaah, but they should emerge (from their homes) in the state
    that their bodies are pungent.” [Abu Dawood]
    The Arabic word, tafilaat which is used in this Hadith means
    unscented. A woman is described as tafilatun when her body
    exudes an unscented (pungent) odour. This has been stated by
    Ibn Abdil Barr, etc. Shaukaani states that the word tafila refers
    to a stench. A woman who is described as imra`atun tafilatun
    means that she is unscented. [Aunul Ma`bood]
    All such factors are included under the term scented which
    leads to attraction, like smart gaudy clothing, external display
    of jewellery, and a pompous exhibition of beauty. [ibid.]
    All these narration clearly show that women were
    permitted to attend the Masjid, provided they adhered to
    these conditions. It is also clear that if they do not practice on
    these advices they are acting contrary to the injunctions of Nabi
    (sallallahu alayhi wasallam).
    Can it honestly be said that the women of today who may
    attend the Masjid for the five daily Salaat or for the Eid Salaat,
    would adhere to these conditions? Will they not come out in
    their splendour and beauty? Will they not wear and make a
    display of their jewellery? Will they ever be able to come in
    their scruffy unscented clothes?

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  37. Why read 20 rakaats taraweeh when Nabi SAW only read 8?

    Why stand and drink zam zam when the sahaba stood and drank zam zam because the ground around the well was wet?

    Why follow have 4 madhab when Nabi SAW did things from all 4 madhahib?

    Why have ONE wife when men are allowed FOUR?

    Why read zohar and maghrib softly as Nabi SAW did so only becoz the kuffar would hear and them and than locate and attack them?

    Why are women spending R1000's on clothes when it is sunnah to be simple?

    Why worry about WAJIB when all our cars are bought with interest loans?uhh isnt that war against Allah.

    Why eat calamari when according to HANAFI IT IS HARAAM... (please confirm with mufti Radhaul Haq Mufti of SA)

    there are so many things that we do wrong on a daily basis and dont moan abot.

    tell me, for 100's of years there were pious ulama and real scholars of deen. WHAT HAPPEN THEY SUDDENLY FORGOT ALL THE FATWAS ABOUT WOMEN AT THE EIDGAH??

    lets rather not question those who are learned and try and become grand muftis by reading one kitaab or studying 5 years while there are those who have given there lives towards knowledge on deen.

    Thats the prob, nobody listens anymore. we all wana be chiefs no indians

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  38. anonymous - that is a really silly comment

    because the opinion that women should go to eidgah IS the majority 1, not a minority one as the SA Ulema would have you believe - I challenge you all to go and research all the different Muslim countries and communities, and you will find, that it is only the indo-paks (and then too, not all) that have this idea.
    tells you something doesn't it

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  39. I agree with you Saffiyah

    Its the indoctrination of the Indo-Pak brand of Islam that has sadly kept us South African Muslims backwards.

    We are led to believe that the length of Beards and Kurtas determine piety.

    Its the same culture that allows us to sit every year in Itikaaf, spending many nights on the musalaah... but we think nothing when we mistreat our black servants.

    The same guys that use the "intermingling" excuse, send their wives happily to shopping malls. Where is the laws of purdah/intermingling when Pick and Pay have butter R2 cheaper???
    Its this Indo-Pak culture that makes us believe that Allah only exists in the confines of a Masjid.
    Why do we religiously fold our trousers up when we performing NMZ... Why to we then roll them down when we leave the Masjid???? Do we only want to eradicate Pride during Salaah.

    Its time we looked in the mirror.


    ABR

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  40. @ABR. Fair enough, point taken. However, I do not agree with the fact that some of you talk degrade the Indo Pak i.e. Deobandi Ulama. Let us remembe that it it through their efforts that Islam is where it is in South Africa. Most of you on this blog have gone to Madressahs run by the Indo Pak Ulama or the Jamiat. And most of us today know how to read salaah and read quraan because of the efforts of these Ulama. Dont forget that!!

    mayfair boy

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  41. @ABR. Women may go to Pick and Pay alone, but they do not do this in the name of Islam, like the Brixton Eidgar.

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  42. well majority of Arab ulama are now following Ibn Baaz, who said the world is flat and the that Allah sits on his thrown therefore confined to space. The salfi school of thought is becoming sickening. Thats why majority Saudi, kuwait Qatar are reading 8 rakaats taraweeh.

    End of the day every one rests in there own grave, do what makes you happy

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  43. Areh baaprie baap, UBG look what u caused here...u have unleashed moral and religious dilemna....

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  44. no1 is degrading the Deobandi Ulema - only stating that there is a difference of opinion and each Muslim is entitled to follow the opinion which is closest to the Sunnah based on the proofs and reasonings, for which I have provided above for the majority opinion...
    point being - follow the opinion that women should not got to eid salaah if you want, but dont force your opinion on others, as it is not THE ONLY ONE, and dont make it difficult for sisters who do attend.

    In any case - most people who read/comment on this post already have an opinion, so dont worry anon, no religious dilemma!

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  45. If you are a well travelled person across the globe, you would notice that the common south african, in terms of deeni knowledge, is quite well educated compare to common people from other countries because of the infrastructure put in place by the "indo-pak ulema"

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  46. Well said, I agree. I was in a muslim country not so long ago, and I saw individuals making wudhu, and not removing their shoes, but just allowing water to run over their shoes. Some of these individuals read salaah with their shoes on. Alhumdullillah the "indo-pak ulema" have thought us well.

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  47. you idiots!!! just because someone does something differently from you, doesnt make it wrong.
    Nor does it make you any more superior

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  48. lol! in actual fact - the reality is that SA muslims know the ritual aspects of Islam very well, but ask them about the logic/reasoning/rationale behind the things they do and they are clueless - and in this senses, always have to rely on what "mufti says" ... but alhamdulillah I see things starting to slowly change and ppl starting to think a bit ...

    as for the shoe example - LOL - you obviously have not understood the different rulings by different madhaibs and the different times when 1 is allowed to ... by the way, regarding ibn Baaz, He also believes women should only come to the Mussalla's dressed modestly and unperfumed - their is no dispute on that!
    Sheikh bin Baz: (http://www.binbaz.org.sa/mat/2500) he said: ‘And some went to the saying that Eid Prayer if Fardu Ain Like Jum'ah Prayer, therefore it is not allowed for the residing men that they restrain from it, and this saying is the Most clear and the closest to the truth, and it is preferred for the Women to come to it with the care of Hijab and prevention of perfuming........"

    the SA ulema are asking us to believe that all South African women have no morals and respect for the ‘adaab’ of the deen and the mosque? Is it correct to make such sweeping generalisations, or should the scholars rather focus on teaching the ummah the correct Adaab (etiquette) through encouraging them to attend?

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  49. @Safiyyah. You are quick to quote and talk about what SA Ullama "want us to beleive". Have you perhaps studied as long as they have??? Why not tell us what your islamic qualifications are???

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  50. @Safiyyah. I dont think you've been around prominent SA Ullama such as ML Suliman Moola or ML Ebrahim Bham. You will find that these scholars are well versed in Islamic and Secular knowledge. Maybe you should attend or listen to some of their programmes. It might change your view.

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  51. @Safiyyah. Sorry, I meant change your view of SA Ullama.

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  52. i dont have anything against them - Ml Bham is a great scholar, no doubt - that does not mean one cannot differ with him - there is a science in Islam called Adab-al-Ikhtilaaf .... ettiquette of differences.

    Do you know that Ml Suliman Moola attends a huge conference in Canada every year called, "reviving the islamic spirit" - i have been to these conferences and they are simply amazing, they have a ladies seating area, then a family seating area in the middle, then men, no barriers in between, and also, the men and women pray together, with no partition, the men in front women at the back, also, the conference has women speakers/dai'yas/sheikhas speaking to the men and women ... so perhaps we should ask Ml Suliman Moola why he speaks at this conference every year, but in SA he is against a kind of gathering where there is no "purdah", where men and women miz and pray together in Jamaat.... something to think about :)

    I am a student of knowledge and I study under various scholars, local and international ...

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  53. saffiya refer to fatawaa darul uloom zakkariyya for the fatwa on women going the masjid 4 salaah
    fatwa was given by the grand mufti of s.a in the light of the quraan and hadith

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  54. so nw ur pointin fingers @ml.moola miss saffiya
    y dnt u wear a purdah i seen the way u dress wen u go masjid all the make up etc ;} u came out to thank ur shaikh shaikh qardawi for makin the point about women going to the masjid bt u never wear a pardah wen u stood in between so many men

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  55. @Anonymous on Friday 3 Sep 2010

    So you can criticize Saffiya but she cant criticize the Maulana...I must say that does indeed sound fair!

    And remember, lower your gaze - dont go to Mosque to stare at the women, that is your weakness

    What will your wife think? Shame on you SIES!

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  56. hamid from hammasfortFriday, 03 September, 2010

    No women in mosque = no gazes to lower
    Men are weak, its going to happen. And hence the ulema passed the fatwa in light of todays times.

    We are not Sahaaba.So lets not compare them to us in terms of integrity and character.

    Slating an Aalim is a sign of Qiyaamat. And sadly to say. With the amount of overnight, google-a-fatwa people on the internet, Qiyaamat is getting ever closer

    Allah save us all.

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  57. Next thing dees Safiyyah poyri is going to say veemen must be imaam at maseet. Maybe she vant to be imaam at Nurul Islam maseet! I remember asal no wakat one jummah in 23rd street maseet they ver vanting to read khutba in englis, you know dees modern muslims. De fordsburg boys ver vaiting to tramp de imaam if he vent ahead wit it. dos ver de good old days.

    Abdul Chacha

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  58. Hamid from Hammasford
    Did you just google that quote about Qiyamat? Cause you dont seem to be a learned person and have added very little fact here

    How many times do we have to get it to your thick scull that we are merely agreeing with other international ulema....no one forces us to listen to the Indo Pak school of thought

    In fact you just seem like a fool
    As a man, I dont look at the women in the mosque

    Like I predicted earlier, it is you with the weakness

    So must the women stop going to mosque because you are weak? Grow up man...the good news is that it seems like the village of Hammosfort is most definitely not missing it's idiot!

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  59. Ver is Hammosfort???

    Abdul Chacha

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  60. lol - when ppl dont have a credible argument they take to attacking personality ... i did not blight any Aalims character, merely asked about a discrepency in their practice ...

    LOL - why would I wear a niqab? thats a whole other issue, but its not required ... and if Ml Ighsaan Hendricks, Sh Qaradawi and all the other scholars who were there had no issues - then you, a layman, shouldn't either - :) simple. and shows us how courageous you are, "anonymous", lol. I stand for what I believe in and dont hide behind any screens, veils or otherwise, unfortunately the rest are cowardly. and if you are going to the mosque I go to - then how hypocritical, as the only mosque i go to is the one that affords me my complete dignity, and one you obviously would not be caught dead in if that is your attitude :)

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  61. sorrry sister safs mari bhool thay gayi u c the thing is i was jus tryin to trouble u maaf plz 4give me im brother abdool 4rm ct maaf 4 takin bout u n the pardah n shaik qardawi ;) tc may allah make it easy 4 u

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  62. We do live in a time of fitna, theres no doubt in that.I can only imagine what could take place especially with regards to youth etc. But the question to ask is , whether female exclusion from the masjid contributes to this lack of awareness. Let us look ans study other countries who do practice it? Is the reality as dangerous as some on here imagine it? Many men would find it very difficult to understand how excluded women feel from the community and united form of Islam, and instead are left to motivate themselves spiritually in the very environment in which they live and work and encounter their daily stresses.Its deeply sad that although women move around more freely in todays society, the place thats most taboo is the masjid. True, for some it would be an opportunity to commit evil. But for many it would be spiritually uplifting to attend the masjid on occasion, having appropriate dressing and conduct being essential. .This is not something that has no premise in the hadith and Sunnah.
    Sister In Islam

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  63. Saffiya if u go on like this u will say things that does not need to be said. U shud just keep quiet and read your salaah at home. They say that a time will come when u ask a mufti for his opinion on a matter and he will give a true opinion but then coz u don't like it or to suit your needs u look for another mufti's opinion and that mufti perhaps will give u an opinion that will suit u, then u will say but this mufti said it is ok but not mentioning that that was the 10th opinion you sought.

    Anyway, this is the opinion of Mufti AK Hoosein who is one of the renown and true scholars of Islam:

    Are women allowed to go to the Eid-Gah for Eid Namaaz?

    IT IS NOT PERMISSIBLE FOR WOMEN TO GO TO THE EIDGAH. AS THEY GO WITH NEW CLOTHING, PERFUME, OPEN FACES ETC – ALL ARE HARAM.

    Was it allowed in the Prophet (S.A.W’s) days? Why is this practice in force in the middle-east countries?

    MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES ARE NOT EVIDENCE IN ISLAM.
    Is this allowed?

    Also, are women allowed to attend normal salaat in the musjids if facilities are provided for the? Please elaborate.

    NABI SAW SAID IT IS BETTER FOR THEM TO READ AT HOME. (ABU DAWUD)

    So, who are we to decide for the mufti's. Women remain at home or perish at your peril, when your eyes close then you will know all about it, but for now rebel and be stubborn coz u living in modern times u must do as western society does. Follow those that are learned and don't interpret Hadith and Quraan yourself and suit your own whims and fancies.

    And Allah knows best.

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  64. To anonymous above:

    You're right...Middle Eastern countries are not the shining lights of Islam, we all know that this can only be India, Pakistan and the Deoband school of thought

    How can Indians choose to follow ulema of different colour to us? As you said Maulana AK is a true scholar...we accept that he is 1 of the scholars of todays time

    But who are you to say that the other scholars mentioned in the discussions above are not true scholars? Do you even know who they are

    This smacks of nothing more that clear cut racism!

    And there is no Priesthood in Islam. Maulana's can give us their opinions, but Halaal and Haraam is not the right of the Maulana...that is for the Almighty only to decide. Any Maulan who makes Haraam what the almighty has made Halaal will have to answer

    U shud just keep quiet and see that in the land of the blind the one eyed is king...especially if he is the same race as us!

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  65. Saffiya why do you not just read your eidgah in brixton and leave others to believe in what they wish and rather spend your time inviting any other like minded females to join you in brixton where they are catered for instead of spending your time justifying your beliefs, you have your opinion and so do others so you follow your opinion and leave others to follow there's...

    This is not a racial matter, do not criticise ulama and the learned so please rather make a concerted effort to invite any women who feel like they want to read eid namaaz at the eidgah to join you in brixton and leave this topic or debate out

    Concerned Muslim

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  66. For Safiyyah and her followers information. Women are permitted to read eid salaah at the Eidgha which is held at Bloch Park in Mayfair. For a number of years, the Somali women have been attending the eidgah, AND NOBODY HAS STOPPED THEM, OR MADE THEM FEEL UNWELCOMED. They read the salaah and leave. Their is no picnic or socialising between strange man and women nvolved like the brixton Eidgah. There is a seperate section at the back for the ladies, and guess what Safiyya?? There are no partitions as well. So why not come to the Bloch Park Eidgah. Oh No, but there wont be any picnic there, or any socialising between strange men and women. Ok, sometimes we do socialise with na mehrams, but do not use an islamic platform for you haraam intentions.

    Abdullah Adam

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  67. I agree with everything saffiya says, we women of today are intelligent, successful and independant and i for one think its time we started a muslim womens organisation that will cater for our specific needs and rights because we have rights, females are born with certain rights!!! The same way the western world deprived us of our rights and remained ignorant for centuries while we slaved for men well the day will dawn when religion will recognise us for who we are and we shall finally be acknowledged as equal and we shall be treated so!

    Ladies its time to stand up to this old fashion thinking and take a stand, we need to unite all the sisters of this ummah and take a stand, there is no better time than now...

    We can build our own mosques and we'll hire a male imaam and we shall run our own madressahs and teach all future generations never to degrade and segregate women and to treat us equal, men are not that powerful anymore to control us, in many homes women have a say and that is testement to how far we have come...

    Bilqis

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  68. Mayb there is no atmosphere at Bloch Park Eidgah, thats why Safiyyah would rather go to Brixton.

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  69. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  70. Saffiya so you claim that because suliman moola was at a conference in Canada its a belief he shares?
    So if i read a namaaz at a shia mosque doeas it mean im a shia?
    Islam teaches us to respect other beliefs, you should try doing that and take this quest of yours to brixton

    Imraan

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  71. So once Saffiya gives arguments that u CANT HANDLE you resort to attacking her personally - very grown up of you

    This forum was started for an intelligent discussion...she has adhered to those very well with clear and concise points

    Some others have done the same, but some like Ebrahim and Abdullah are of too low IQ for this discussion

    When you cant win the debate you want to win the boxing match

    Ebrahim and Abdullah....you are asking her why she is posting here...why the hell was this forum created? For discussion

    Ebrahim, you will have to answer to the Almighty for your personal attack...and if we say U are right will you shut up and crawl back under the rock which you came from

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  72. I'm still waiting for Safiyyah to tell me why she wont come to the Bloch Park Eidgah.

    Abdullah Adam

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  73. I'm also waiting for safiyyah to answer my question

    Imraan

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  74. Mayfair masjid has ladies facilities and ladies may perform taraweeh there. Some do. Ladies perform taraweeh at Houghton as well. However these facilities are TOTALLY seperate. However the whole social event is absent at these masajid, and it appears that that is what Safiyyah craves. Socialise whith whoever you want, but do not use an islamic platform to commit your sins. And please do not justify your wrongdoings.

    Abdullah Adam

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  75. Abdullah so does greenside have ladies facilities also

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  76. Somali women stopped reading at Bloch park a while ago - and started their own congregation on Bird Street (beautiful gathering), and why would I go somewhere I am not welcome? :)
    its not about socializing, it's about community - women socialize with the women and men with men, families with family, simple.

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  77. to the person who said "it's about respecting others beliefs" - EXACTLY! If Ml SM can respect others beliefs in Canada, why cant he do the same here?

    why do women who go mosque/eid salah become ostracized, called "jaahil" and "lesbian" by some other Ulema?

    and as for justifying my beliefs - the post did ask a question after all - and I certainly respect women who make an informed decision not to attend eid Salaah, and I invite like-minded women to Brixton :)

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  78. hamid from hammasfortMonday, 06 September, 2010

    Safiyya bhen.
    Our Imam met up in a tractor accident.
    Dont you wish to bring your circus road trip brigade to Hammarsford.
    If you want, you can take the mimbar too.
    While you at it, take it home.
    Nice ornament
    We will give you a community Eid never to forget.

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  79. Is it true the Brixton flyer has balloons etc on the invite.

    Why not do one better and get a jumping castle and ferris wheel while you at it.

    Better yet, relocate to the Zoo Lake. Home of Eid mockery for some good odd years.

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  80. hmmm you obviously havent been to egypt/turkey/saudi/jordan/syria - they DO have jumping castles and ferris wheels for the kids :)

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  81. Saffiya, seems you are not getting our learned scholar's point of view on this forum

    According to this forum, only Indian / Pakistani Maulana's have any authority

    How do you use Egypt/Turkey/Saudi/Syria/Jordan as an example when there is Karachi / Bombay and Lucknaw as our shining lights? Next you'll tell these people that Somali's are equal to Indians when it comes to Islam, and then they're gonna lynch you :-)

    For Hamid from Hammasfort: This is said "tongue in cheek" Ask your wife, she'll explain to you what it means, as you seem too dumb to get that meaning yourself

    No wonder your topie moved to Hammsford...to keep you out of the public eye...If he know that you now have internet...!!!

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  82. Now Now Safiyyah, lets not create false impressions. No honourable Aalim in SA is going to call a muslim lady a lesbian for wanting to attend the masjid. I think that you are just creating a big fuss over nothing. As I mentioned previously, a number of masajid have ladies facilites, and they do not discourage the ladis from attending. Mayfair, Greenside, Houghton to name a few.

    Abdullah Adam

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  83. Have you ever thought that the partitions at these institutes may not be to prevent the men from staring at the women, but it may be for the self respecting sister who herself just wants to come to the masjid to read her salaah and not socialise with strange men. Have you forgotten that there are sisters like this, who crave to read the salaah behind the imaam and complete the quraan in taraweeh, but do not want to sacrifice their modesty.

    Abdullah Adam

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  84. Abdullah she seems to avoid your questions with regard to the ladies facilities at many mosques, i dont see the so called indo pak ulama complaining or boycotting those mosques do you saffiyah?
    Saffiyah understand that the main point we are trying to make is that no one minds ladies facilities and women reading taraweeh or eidgah as long as its seperate, we really do mind when there is mixing, many women prefer to stay at home because of there modesty and desire to exclude themselves from being seen by men but you dont seem to understand that point or want to and many men prefer not seeing other mens wives reading close to them, we might not be the most islamicly inclined society but we would prefer to avoid acts of zinnah during our eid namaaz and with mixing it is inevitable some zinnah will be committed as shaytan will whisper in someones ears...

    You seem to have your quest and thats good for you but dont try and be a spokesman for women and there rights when not all women want the rights you so crave and neither does our society, we do not want the mixing of sexes during any islamic prayers and insha-allah you will understand this point.
    I actually asked a jordanian friend at mosque yesterday and he confirmed that women facilities are completely seperate in most arab countries and according to him a family picnic eidgah was something he didnt hear about so please stop calling on women to join the lenasia eidgah as this is wrong and i make dua you see it bacause its based solely on the fact that women have not been catered for at lenasia and like others have told you on this site rather promote brixton to the other ladies who would like to read with the men and stop creating controversy and rather go somewhere where women are catered for.

    Imraan

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  85. oh so your 1 jordanian friend is then the spokesperson for the entire jordan :) I see ... just like you're asking me not be the spokeswomen ... which I am not, by the way, I speak for myself, and my own beliefs - the rest are welcome to do as they please!
    of course the women should be separate from the men, nowhere do I advocate they should stand shoulder to shoulder with the men, but what I do advocate is that they be part of the main congregation, not in some far away place ... yes women should be given privacy too! but to put them in a different place altogether, that defeats the purpose and in any case renders the salaah invalid ...

    and I would like to re-iterate, that for the last 15 years, no zina has taken place at the brixton eid-gah :)

    as for the lenasia eid gah - this is not my call - not started or executed by me, so your accusation is completely unfounded! it is time they make space for women though - and what better way than for the women themselves to demand it!

    i say it again - I dont want all women to suddenly come to eid-gah, I want them to be educated enough to make that decision themselves, whether for or against, no matter!

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  86. oh and yes - i think its excellent that the above-mentioned masaajid have ladies sections! i have been to most of them! masjid ul islam in brixton itself has a completely separate womens section WITH a partition!

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  87. and yes - some ulema, lets not mention names - have used the word lesbian in relation to some women who attend the masjid. go google it :)

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  88. Saffiya, please don't make haraam halaal, u will be answerable on the day of qiyaamat for this. That's why the most amount of mistakes made at Eid Salaah comes from Brixton. Haraam is haraam even the muftis of SA have said this. But you want the inclusion of women in Eid salaah, Astagfirullah. If you have studied overseas good for you, if u want to read salaah behind an Imaam go overseas and do that, but don't infiltrate and then say that you are not the architect/catalyst of women wanting to read at eid-gah. It's haraam, haraam, haraam and that's according to ulema. But it's ok ulema don't knw what they are talking but women know better these days.

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  89. Safiyyah my response needs to be broken up for some reason it doesnt publish so please take it as one response...

    Thanks

    Imraan

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  90. Oh come on Safiyah can you honestly tell me that no single guy ended up flirting with a cute girl at the mixed Eidgah?

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  91. I can tell you that the people who come to Brixton are good Muslims and there is NO flirting going on

    As for all the mistakes, were you there to see any of them...funny I've been going for over a decade and I havent seen any... Imraan must have some kind of telepathy

    Do not make Haraam what the Prophet of behalf of the Almighty made Halaal....are you saying that SA Mufti's are more important than the prophet? They can discourage but they can NEVER make HARAAM

    Imraan, if you are making it Haraam then to me it seems that you are wanting to take over the job of the Almighty...please study what is Haraam - No Maulana has right over this
    This is clearly defined, like drinking of Alcohol and Consuming of Pork....

    Please, be tolerant of other Muslims and their opinions

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  92. It's Haraam cause the Molana told me so, and I'm too dumb to even ask him why?

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  93. So safiyyah who always must be right considering he's born and brought up in Jordan and lived there for the past 30 years wouldnt you say its logical to take his word unless you can explain to me why i shouldnt listen to him, how many years did you spend there that we should take your word over his?
    You keep making bold claims and yet when we ask people who would know and can verify you mock what they say like you know better than them and they lie bacause it doesnt correspond to what you state, no one said he's a spokesman for Jordan except you and its just what he says holds more truth considering he was born and brought up there.

    Must your word always be divinely right in everything?

    You seem to wanna be the spokeswomen for the whole ummah and yet your information is not necessarily correct, so you dispute that in Jordan they dont have picnics but rather completely segregated prayers between men and women?
    Is your word divine that no other opinion is valid?
    Ever considered saffiyah that in the same way peoples beliefs vary from place to place (eg. bosmont) doesnt necessarily mean the whole country follows what you think they do?
    Ever considered that maybe you look for like minded people and gatherings to justify your quest and that every person in a specific country does not follow a specific thinking or frame of mind the same way we all dont agree on everything?
    Sometimes we see what we choose to see, we believe what we choose to believe and we justify what we choose to justify?

    No one mentioned putting the women in a different place altogether except for u, dont quote others on your words, thats something you imagined, so does the ladies facilities at mayfair, greenside etc exist in a different building altogether that you make such statements? Im glad you enjoyed reading there, same mosque no one had any problems with, why because its seperated if you havent noticed!!!
    All i see is seperate facilities yet same congregation!!! Do u dispute its the same congregation?
    Did you see anyone object to ladies facilities?

    Did the indo pak ulama as you call them stop the mosque from being a built or took any necessary steps to boycott the mosque in any way?
    Please answer?
    You refuse to acknowledge that we are only against mixing of sexes but you seem to prefer that and keep justifying it and changing words and opinions to suit your quest...
    part1

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  94. To Part1: Above

    Do you deny that there was mixing of sexes in the time of the prophet...was there segregation?

    You know the answers to this
    You'll now say "Times have changed, there is Fitna, We are not Sahaba"

    Does that mean that Islam was perfected for Sahaba only?

    Your comments only show your ignorance and intolerance

    Safiya was brave to put her full identity yet you hide behind your first name

    Put your first name, surname and other contact details if you are so brave as her?

    SIES, a woman has more courage than you ever will

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  95. Imraan, Who is this person you claim to know from Jordan and if you could be so kind to give his contact details so that we can verify what you say

    You seem to be a 1 track minded person with clouded judgement, perhaps if you didnt just make this person up we could go any verify what this person had to say

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  96. I was watching the completion of the Taraweeh today...The Imam read so beautifully, I only wish that I understood what he was saying...but in the 8 years that I attended Madressah (in the eighties) not a single time did we do any Tafseer of the Holy Quraan, or any Arabic lessons. Instead we were taught Urdu? 20 odd years later it makes no sense to me at all

    Getting back to the Taraweeh - men in the front, women in the back. Some places had barriers or separate areas, some were shared in a dignified Islamic manner

    A lesson that it IS being done and CAN be done, and done with dignity

    I wonder if the learned commentators on this blog can tell me whether what those women were doing was "HARAAM"

    Eid Mubarak to all, may Allah show us the path and make us tolerant of each other's different opinions

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  97. 96 comments.. Top stuff..

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  98. "Ever considered saffiyah that in the same way peoples beliefs vary from place to place (eg. bosmont) doesnt necessarily mean the whole country follows what you think they do?" - exactly! i agree - which is why ur jordanian friend is only 1 account of the many different types of eid gatherings that occur - and also why all you male-centric miuslims are also only 1 account of the Islam in South Africa :) there ARE other versions! :)

    eid mubarak all.

    wslm

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  99. And thats exactly my point also, there are other versions so let which ever version practise the way they choose ;)
    If one place is reluctant to promote mixing leave them and let them pray the way they feel is right and if another place doesnt mind mixing than just join whichever place suits your beliefs or needs...

    Eid mubarak to all and place can women not just pitch up at the lenasia eidgah its just wrong if you not catered for!

    Eid mubarak to all and to you safiyyah ;)

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  100. Sorry last comment is from Imraan

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  101. i like your little side-kick on "promoting mixing", sorry anonymous, we dont promote mixing.

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  102. I dont want to argue so im gona agree even though you did forward a email asking women to attend the lenz eidgah but ok ;)

    Eid mubarak Safiyyah ;)

    Imraan

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  103. perhaps you didnt read the email - it stated clearly that
    1) dress modestly, no perfume etc.
    2) leave immediately after the khutbah
    3) stand behind and away from the men

    if thats mixing, then ok - but since u dont want to argue .. :)

    ReplyDelete
  104. Safiyyah, instead of debating this issue further, why not visit the following link and explain the views of muslims http://www.mg.co.za/article/2010-09-08-us-minister-plans-on-burning-the-quran

    ReplyDelete
  105. Ok one last time ;)
    Perhaps you didnt realise there are no facilities for women so how can anyone expect no mixing not to take place, this is the main argument, last question safiyyah ;) please answer this one, so do the men who come late keep moving the women behind them or do the men put there musallah's behind them?
    Every year lenasia eidgah has a space problem due to shukr so many men coming, do you not think this might prove problematic for womens plans and did no women decide to research or consult anyone before making a decision?
    If they didnt that stinks of arrogance ;)

    Thanks safiyyah and no more after this hopefully;)

    Salaams

    ReplyDelete
  106. And last commentn is Imraan

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  107. dear imraan - do you know that during the time of Imam Malik, due to the influx of women attending the masaajid, the late comers amongst the men would end up behind the women - and he, Imam Malik (ra) ruled this to be perfectly fine due to the necessity ... same thing happens in Makkah.


    please have a husn dhan (good opinion) of your sisters - i believe they will behave with dignity - and this year might be this way but IA next yr more thought will be given by the organizers for next eid to accommodate the women appropriately - if the women wait for discussions and negotiations and fatwas, it will never happen.

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  108. Dear Safiyyah

    I guess after this we'll stop ;)
    Do you not think that its advisable to avoid mixing of sexes where possible or not?
    Are we not blessed with cars these days to drive to places that cater for women?
    You comparing makkah, there is no substitute for makkah but there sure is a substitute for the lenz eidgah and women are welcome there so why not just go there?
    Why not go places where facilities are in place for women?
    So you agree that women should force there way to an eidgah where they are not catered for?
    Or is it too much effort to drive and not controversial enough to do this?

    So islam promotes women to take matters into there own hands or is this what women do these days instead of being patient or going through the necessary channels?
    Did you bother to contact the jamiat with regard to female eidgah facilties a month ago or do you have a problem with them also?

    You say otherwise it will never happen, make dua and anything can happen with dua dont you think but women can always go down the route of taking matters into there own hands ;)

    Imraan

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  109. ok Imraan - best YOU take it up with the jamiat, as I have done so numerous times.

    ReplyDelete
  110. If the jamiat are reluctant why force the issue, just go brixton end of story!
    They have there hadiths and reasoning and you have yours, you did your duty and leave allah to judge and to punish as he sees fit dont go on this kamakaze mission to change the world because as you agreed earlier some groups and gatherings have different opinions to others so stick to those that correspond with yours and respect those that do not!!!

    Its that easy

    Imraan

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  111. To the anonymous person who comments on my posts

    What an absolute hypocrite you are!!!
    Do you not feel shy or stupid to ask me for my full name and details or anyone elses when you respond as anonymous?
    Please stop being a joke
    Pot calling the kettle black dont you think?
    Go get a brain and please refrain from commenting on my posts as i prefer hearing from safiyyah she atleast comes across as a intelligent person and even though we share different views i enjoy reading her responses.
    For your information i did put my name at the end its imraan but since my full response was unable to be published i mailed it to swoosh who is putting it in parts or was supposed to lol

    ReplyDelete
  112. To anonymous again

    Do you seriously not know that its your parents duty to teach you islam not the moulana's or the madressah's you went to.
    Madressah's are set up to help the parents because we live in a society which prefers convenience.
    Do you realise you are actually criticising your own parents?
    How old are you that you dont know these things?
    Instead of criticising the people who taught you to read the quraan and the basics of islam rather be grateful and appreciate all they did and make shukr that they did...
    If you or your parents didnt like the islamic setup why did you attend?
    Part 1

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  113. Surely you had a choice or did the indo pak ulama put a gun to your head and force you to go to there institution?
    Whats stopping you from learning arabic now if your heart so desires to learn it?
    As for the taraweeh do not assume the same rules that apply to the haram apply to other mosques, the haram deserves greater respect than that so please show it.
    The haram has a womens section which is seperate like mosques in counties all over world it is seperate, if you had to go read in the haram when its quiet the guards will not allow you to read with the men, during peak periods there is leniency allowed, go do some research before you talk and stop passing fatwas about whats haraam and halaal and rather go study islam...
    Shukr i have never made a comment on this site about whats halaal and haraam because unlike you i am not arrogant enough to assume i have the knowledge of an aleem!
    And get a name lol

    ReplyDelete
  114. i guess you're right imraan, to each his/her own - i'd just like to say I didnt start that lenz campaign, i merely sent it to ppl - perhaps you could take it up it the person who started it - her details are on the email.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Safiyyah lets leave it as each to there own ;)
    I have no personal vendetta against you and never was it my intention to personally attack you and make me maaf if i said anything wrong, its just a discussion/debate on our different views and beliefs and its a platform to air them so nothing personal...
    Everyone has to make there own choices in life.
    In all fairness you didnt start the lenz eidgah email and i didnt imply you did my issue was just the forwarding of the email but if thats how it came across im sorry, if she was on here i would have.

    Eid mubarak and make me maaf and enjoy your eid and eid mubarak to everyone and enjoy your day no matter how you choose to spend it and may allah guide us all.

    Salaams

    ReplyDelete
  116. hamid from hammasfortWednesday, 08 September, 2010

    Imraan bhai. Remember these MSA chicks that started the whole human shield campaign, then on missile went off in Irtaq/Afghan whereever, they all split the scene.

    I think there is a word for someone that leaves the battlefield of Jihad. Damn, there is no dictionary in this farm, else I would have found it.

    *Blast from the past

    ReplyDelete
  117. Ibn Hajar (rahmatullah alayh) says:"The summary of the discussion of Nawawi and Zarkashi is that when intermingling of the sexes prevails whether in the Musjid or on the roads or there is the danger of mischief because of women's adornment and exhibition of beauty, then it is forbidden for them to come out. . . . It is incumbent on the Imaam or his representative to prevent women from emerging."(Laamiud Duraari)

    ReplyDelete
  118. Deriving proof from the Hadith:"if your women seek permission to go to the Masjid at night, then give them permission."(Naylul Autaar 3/130) and also, the Hadith : "Do not stop the servants of Allah from the houses of Allah, and they should emerge taafilaat." (Imaam Ahmad and Imaam Abu Dawood Naylul Autaar 3/130) Umm Salmah narrates the hadith : "The best place for a woman's salaah is the innermost recess of her home" (Narrated by Imaam Ahmad Naylul Autaar 3/131)

    ReplyDelete
  119. hamid from hammasforts brotherThursday, 09 September, 2010

    Imraan bhai maybe we must ask these chicks how many veemen go to the mosque after ramadhaan to read namaaz because these veemen make noise about ladies facilities but apparently the ladies facilities are empty after ramadhaan and the abaya shops are deserted but the malls are full and they not wearing scarf or pumped up abaya, and that is the sad truth women!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  120. aaaaaaaay, shut up n keep quiet. leave saffiya n worry abt ur own isla.

    anyway eid mubarak.

    ReplyDelete
  121. hamid from hammasfortThursday, 09 September, 2010

    ya let us make maaf before Eid.
    We can all go to Teazers next week to make peace and watch the new Swarovski dance.

    Where the girls come on stage with swarovski design material and start going naangee

    ReplyDelete
  122. hamid from hammasforts brotherThursday, 09 September, 2010

    Anonymous no one mentioned safiyyah, are you blind or just stupid or in luuuurve with her?
    No one knows who you but eid mubarak to you also, people anonymous said eid mubarak lol

    ReplyDelete
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